[David Nordahl]
32:08: Oh, I think he did, yeah. Yeah, he had to, just from the conversation we had. I think that's true. He did extend children's lives and he did everything he could in his power to do that. You look at some of these kids and all the surgeries he paid for and all the hospital bills and even helping the parents. Michael never talked about those things. You had to hear it from someone else because ... See Michael believed that if you did an act of kindness and then you talked about it or bragged about it or whatever, that it took all of the meaning away that was in your heart when you did it. So he was always very mute about things like that, the kindness that he did.
32:08: Oh, I think he did, yeah. Yeah, he had to, just from the conversation we had. I think that's true. He did extend children's lives and he did everything he could in his power to do that. You look at some of these kids and all the surgeries he paid for and all the hospital bills and even helping the parents. Michael never talked about those things. You had to hear it from someone else because ... See Michael believed that if you did an act of kindness and then you talked about it or bragged about it or whatever, that it took all of the meaning away that was in your heart when you did it. So he was always very mute about things like that, the kindness that he did.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
33:06: Where was the ...Where were the paparazzi then?
33:06: Where was the ...Where were the paparazzi then?
[David Nordahl]
33:12: Exactly.
33:12: Exactly.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
33:14: Where were these (crosstalk) then when he was doing these things?
33:14: Where were these (crosstalk) then when he was doing these things?
[David Nordahl]
33:16: Exactly. There you go. There you go.
33:16: Exactly. There you go. There you go.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
33:23: And you say if he got a call from ... A call and somebody was really sick or dying or something then he would show.
33:23: And you say if he got a call from ... A call and somebody was really sick or dying or something then he would show.
[David Nordahl]
33:31: Yeah. Of course he would. He never wanted to turn any child down.
33:31: Yeah. Of course he would. He never wanted to turn any child down.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
33:54: can't imagine Michael wanting to turn anyone down.
33:54: can't imagine Michael wanting to turn anyone down.
[David Nordahl]
34:00: No.
34:00: No.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
34:02: Especially when you say that the kids, the kids that was his purpose and I really kind of wonder ... I wonder why when I listen to his song when he says, the kids have had their childhood stolen from them. Do you think that Michael might have been trying to renew their childhood?
34:02: Especially when you say that the kids, the kids that was his purpose and I really kind of wonder ... I wonder why when I listen to his song when he says, the kids have had their childhood stolen from them. Do you think that Michael might have been trying to renew their childhood?
[David Nordahl]
34:27: Well, yeah. I mean, Michael's own childhood was difficult because at a very young age, he was not able to go out and just hang out in the street and meet some other kid and play or shoot some hoops or something like that. He couldn't do that. He was kind of a prison of his own fame and so he knows what it feels like to be an outcast or to be different or not to have the kind of joy that kids are supposed to have like ... Michael was happiest when he was looking at kids that were having a great time. I remember when I was at the ranch and they were putting in the midway, the rides and stuff. That Halloween, Michael and I and Norma went driving in Michael's Chevy Blazer and we drove into Los Olivos, that little town, just so we could see the kids that were trick-or-treating. It's a really small town so all the kids are out. They're all running around, getting candy and everything, and they're having the time of their life, and they're all dressed up in costume. That just delighted Michael to see children having such a good time because he said that childhood was supposed to be fun.
34:27: Well, yeah. I mean, Michael's own childhood was difficult because at a very young age, he was not able to go out and just hang out in the street and meet some other kid and play or shoot some hoops or something like that. He couldn't do that. He was kind of a prison of his own fame and so he knows what it feels like to be an outcast or to be different or not to have the kind of joy that kids are supposed to have like ... Michael was happiest when he was looking at kids that were having a great time. I remember when I was at the ranch and they were putting in the midway, the rides and stuff. That Halloween, Michael and I and Norma went driving in Michael's Chevy Blazer and we drove into Los Olivos, that little town, just so we could see the kids that were trick-or-treating. It's a really small town so all the kids are out. They're all running around, getting candy and everything, and they're having the time of their life, and they're all dressed up in costume. That just delighted Michael to see children having such a good time because he said that childhood was supposed to be fun.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
35:57: Yes. I think that perhaps he did not get a chance to have that fun. I think that he was called to do ... I don't think Michael really ... This is going to sound strange but he probably never was a child in the first place. I think perhaps he was called to experience what it was like to be a child.
35:57: Yes. I think that perhaps he did not get a chance to have that fun. I think that he was called to do ... I don't think Michael really ... This is going to sound strange but he probably never was a child in the first place. I think perhaps he was called to experience what it was like to be a child.
[David Nordahl]
36:25: Oh, absolutely but you are right. He never was a child. I know it was very difficult for him those years but you think of the music that he put out and what he did. I mean, he was a student of music when he was a little kid. He would go to concerts and things where they were performing and then he would sit and watch the response of the audience to the performers that were on stage, to see the things that they responded to, and that helped him build an act. His act did not just happen by accident. His act was well-conceived and well thought out. He knew what he was doing.
36:25: Oh, absolutely but you are right. He never was a child. I know it was very difficult for him those years but you think of the music that he put out and what he did. I mean, he was a student of music when he was a little kid. He would go to concerts and things where they were performing and then he would sit and watch the response of the audience to the performers that were on stage, to see the things that they responded to, and that helped him build an act. His act did not just happen by accident. His act was well-conceived and well thought out. He knew what he was doing.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
37:15: Oh, absolutely. I could see that. I could see that he ... What it was that we liked, he continued it.
37:15: Oh, absolutely. I could see that. I could see that he ... What it was that we liked, he continued it.
[David Nordahl]
37:24: Yeah, absolutely and he wasn't all soul. I don't think you ever met Michael but if you're standing in front of him and you look into his eyes, you can see for a million miles. His eyes were eyes were absolutely unbelievable.
37:24: Yeah, absolutely and he wasn't all soul. I don't think you ever met Michael but if you're standing in front of him and you look into his eyes, you can see for a million miles. His eyes were eyes were absolutely unbelievable.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
37:45: What does that mean?
37:45: What does that mean?
[David Nordahl]
37:48: It means he is an old soul. He has been around before think ... He's evolved.
37:48: It means he is an old soul. He has been around before think ... He's evolved.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
37:54: Oh, okay. Alright, and what that is ... This is to say that I have been doing these sermons about him. I wanted to do them every morning for his birthday weekend. I didn't wake up this morning so that was terrible but anyway that's the way. That's pretty much what the whole thing boiled down to is that he was somebody that was out there teaching people long before they knew they were being taught.
37:54: Oh, okay. Alright, and what that is ... This is to say that I have been doing these sermons about him. I wanted to do them every morning for his birthday weekend. I didn't wake up this morning so that was terrible but anyway that's the way. That's pretty much what the whole thing boiled down to is that he was somebody that was out there teaching people long before they knew they were being taught.
[David Nordahl]
38:26: Oh, yeah.
38:26: Oh, yeah.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
38:28: So let's see. I've watching this thing. They have been showing all the short films that he did on Bad. I'm saying but even if you look at Bad, he's there teaching moral.
38:28: So let's see. I've watching this thing. They have been showing all the short films that he did on Bad. I'm saying but even if you look at Bad, he's there teaching moral.
[David Nordahl]
38:40: Yes, of course. If you want to find out -
38:40: Yes, of course. If you want to find out -
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
38:42: And most people would ? oh, go ahead I'm sorry.
38:42: And most people would ? oh, go ahead I'm sorry.
[David Nordahl]
38:46: Oh, no. I was gonna says that if you want to find out who Michael was, just listen to his music.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
38:53: Right. That is why I like doing ... I was enjoying doing these sermons because he has so much music. He has got music that has like ... how do you make it through something.
[David Nordahl]
39:13: Of course. (Crosstalk)
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
39:14: You know, it's said that's not the way music is today. Today, the music calls your mama "b" and calls their girlfriend probably something even worse.
[David Nordahl]
39:29: Exactly.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
39:30: And what is insane is that the girls love it and they're like going "Oh, yes, I really love this person" and I think why? I wanna know why?
[David Nordahl]
39:46: That's right.
[David Nordahl]
39:53: Well, there are a few performers out there that had the kind of vision and purpose that Michael had. They just don't really exist. He was out there all by himself and he was teaching and he was trying to tell us. Take care of the kids. This is our future.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
40:46: They have like something in this ... I've just watched this because BET has been playing it for his birthday.
[David Nordahl]
40:52: Oh. Sure. I forgot to even check that channel. I should have done that.
42:17: Yeah, for the movie for Bad.
[David Nordahl]
42:20: Yeah. Oh, for Bad. Yeah.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
42:23: Yeah, but the idea is that Michael found ways to bring a message to you, you see? The message that I got was it's important for people to know that you think well of them. That's all. You're proud of them, like that.
[David Nordahl]
42:45: Yeah, and Michael probably did not get a lot of that because there is so much going out from him, that except for some close friends, that I think not much actually came back to him, you know what I mean? Because he gave and gave and gave and gave all the time so people are just used to it, I think.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
43:05: Oh, yes. I wonder if he ... I thought about that song he sang with this "How Many People Are Proud Of You" and he had a song that he sang called To Make My Father Proud.
[David Nordahl]
43:23: Yeah.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
43:24: And To Make My Mother Smile. So much of his music sounds like it's his life.
[David Nordahl]
43:32: Oh yeah. Absolutely.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
44:25: It is never his calling to be a child but perhaps to experience what a child went through and for the Christians out there, that's all that Jesus Christ was here. He was supposed to be experiencing what man went through. Okay.
[David Nordahl]
44:38: That's right. Yup.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
44:40: So like that, so I kind of wonder, did he ever come to grips was who he was on the inside. Did he ... What does he think about himself as a spiritual being.
[David Nordahl]
44:56: I think basically that Michael had low opinion of himself. I don't mean in everything. He was successful in everything so he understood all of that, but I think ... Michael is always trying to do more. I don't think he ever achieved what he expected of himself. Everything he did, he just tired so hard to do it better, do it more, and so I don't really think that he had a great concept of himself. I don't think so, I just don't. What do you think?
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
45:50: I think you're right, but I think it goes back to what we were saying about being proud. I think I might have helped if he had been able to call Joseph, daddy. It might have helped.
[David Nordahl]
46:03: Oh yes, absolutely. Oh yeah.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
46:04: If he able to have a father that would look at him and say "You know what, Michael? You are really good. I am so proud of you. I'm so proud of my son." He never got that.
[David Nordahl]
46:19: No, he sure did not. He sure did not, but he was a ... Joe, the tough customer. He always wanted more.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
47:59: What about the things that ... What about if he didn't think well of himself, what happened when his skin began to change?
[David Nordahl]
48:10: It had already begun when I met him. Of course, when he is not on stage or not in public, he was not wearing any makeup and I noticed that on his right neck and up into his cheek on the right side and also the back of his hand. I did not see his arm because he had a long sleeve shirt on, but that was 1988 and that's ... Vitiligo is usually carried in the genes. Usually other people in the family. Michael told me once that there was someone else in the family that had vitiligo. Michael just dealt with it. Michael didn't whine. I never ever heard Michael complaining about anything. He just dealt with whatever they threw at him. He's very (crosstalk) that way.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
49:13: Well, he said he had rhinoceros skin.
[David Nordahl]
49:18: Well and you know people so well. He's all white all over. Well, when the vitiligo had taken over to a certain degree, he could not use darker make up to hide that anymore because you know its vitiligo. It's not just white like Caucasian skin. It's white like the refrigerator.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
49:40: Right.
[David Nordahl]
49:40: So he had to keep getting lighter and lighter and lighter make up to be able to cover the dark spots that -
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
49:49: (Crosstalk) He started putting just a little bit darker makeup on it, right?
[David Nordahl]
49:54: Yeah.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
49:55: I hope so.
[David Nordahl]
49:57: Yeah. He had to do that and then it had to get lighter because there is more and more white skin that had to be covered.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
50:06: Well, he really, really, really had a rough case of it and I know that many of us have seen people with vitiligo, but I've never known what the name was before.
[David Nordahl]
50:22: Yeah. It's not that uncommon. I have seen people before with vitiligo. In fact, a friend of mine's son has vitiligo. There are quite a few cases of it around, but for people to be so cruel to accuse him of trying to be white which he has never ever tried to do. He was proud of his heritage. He would never have done that but accuse him even after people knew that he had vitiligo, you know? I've never been able to understand that and then...
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
50:55: I know what happened. I know what happened. Michael was so extraordinary that people did not think he was capable of being sick. They did not think anything could ... People remained and nobody dreamed that he would die. There are people that are still saying that he is someplace hiding because Michael was so high. I don't know if he's high spiritually. He is high in the minds of us all. That is why even when they had these people, even they were making those accusations against him, there were people who really were guilty and they never ever ... They never said anything about all those priest and different actors and so on. They never dealt with them because it was sort of like "Well, we know what they are". They're not an angel anyway, but Michael is like an angel.
[David Nordahl]
52:05: Yes he was. Yes he was.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
52:07: So that's what I'm saying. He was on this high plane so nobody could ever believe that anything could happen to him.
[David Nordahl]
52:15: Yeah, I guess you might be right about that. You might be right about that.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
52:21: It's like if it happens it's because Michael has ordered it to happen, you know?
[David Nordahl]
52:29: Yeah, I guess we have the same view. It never crossed my mind that I would outlive Michael. I mean goodness gracious sakes.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
52:36: Right. That's what I'm saying. Nobody would dream that and so I think. You know what? I kind of wonder like it seem to me that he never took time for himself. What do you think about that?
[David Nordahl]
52:55: They've never what?
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
52:56: He never took time for himself. I mean, even with him and the kids, giving, going out and he's spending his money to give the kids candy.
[David Nordahl]
53:06: Oh yeah. No, you're right. He didn't take time for himself. He never did. He would go places, but it was never ... I don't know. It was always for Soul in Richmond I think. It was never just kicking back. You know what I mean? Like most people go in a vacation and they go down by the ocean or something and roll up their chair and kick back on it get some rays and that kind of stuff. Michael is not like that. Michael was a 100% productive human being. That is why he had trouble sleeping was because he could never shut his mind off. He would tell me. He said "I wish I could claim that I wrote this music." He said but the fact is he said "I hear it in my head" and he said "I just perform it." Well, I know it's not that simple but there is just ... There are all that these things running through his head. Not just music, but other things too.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
54:10: Oh.
[David Nordahl]
54:12: That's why in 1993 ... 1993 when he was first accused was ... It kind of ... Michael's mind and his music and what he did was like a river and in 1993 somebody built a dam and stopped up that river. Michael was not one to stop doing anything. He was always pushing forward and doing things and writing music and appearing in concerts and all that stuff and all of a sudden, the brakes were put on. Then he got rolling again but then again in 2003 BAM! There's another dam again and, you know, that one he never really recovered from, I mean, he told me, he said "For all of the things I've done for kids" and he said "to be accused--like they are accusing me, how can they do that to me?" He was just so hurt that people would believe that he would harm a child. Michael would never do that, he would kill himself first, he would, he even said that.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
55:31: I looked at Michael and there is no way, there is absolutely no way. There is no way that he would hurt--do anything like that and I think that people had a problem. People have a problem with who he was and why he was not married and, you know, so on and so on and somehow, because I think that two people and I think they were both disgusting, Oprah and there is Martin Bashir person, you know, if we send those with a question dealing with some of his very personal life, you know, and I just thought to myself how awful. I like this thing, I like MSNBC because I am also a political junkie.
[David Nordahl]
56:32: Oh sure.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
56:33: And I tell you what, this whole little thing of this guy his name Martin Bashir, the one who made that movie Living With Michael. That was supposedly...(Crosstalk)
[David Nordahl]
56:52: Yeah, he just, you know, he edited everything around to make it fit his view because he knew that he would get great coverage by doing that. He--Michael only brought him to the ranch because Princess Diana had--he had written something about Princess Diana, he was really happy with what he did and that was the only reason Michael did that. Michael is always against doing things like that, he made a huge mistake
[David Nordahl]
58:10: I agree. I agree.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
58:12: Michael was more than just a--Michael was a civil rights of everybody. Every single person, you know, so I mean, so as Martin Luther King but Michael was global.
[David Nordahl]
58:29: Yeah, that is right.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
58:30: From the very beginning. He was global and, so I think that Martin, you know if he'd opened up his mouth and said the name Martin Luther King after doing what he did to Michael I might have hopped on the plane to fly to Atlanta and show my true colors. That man destroyed Michael's life and I just----I know you're supposed to forgive people and I am not angry anymore, but I will never forget what he did. I can never ever listen to him.
[David Nordahl]
59:12: I can't either. I cannot have anything to do with him, its just awful what he did to poor Michael. Michael is being so open.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
59:21: Yeah, Michael tried. Michael--he wanted somebody to help him and--it's almost like these things, somebody sent me something in the--somebody put something on there, it's from the--I'll show whatever it is. It's from The Lion King. It's the part where the __59:47__ Lion King is hanging on a ledge and he is asking his brother to help pull him up, but instead of the brother pulling him up, he stomps on his hands and makes him fall down and die.
[David Nordahl]
1:00:02: Yup.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:00:03: It just seemed so much that is the best effect...
[David Nordahl]
1:00:14: Oh yeah. Especially, but it wasn't just him, even mainstream media that were so cruel to Michael. Normally it's just the rags that probably show untrue things, but all of the major networks were repeating stories that were never...
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:00:36: From tabloids.
[David Nordahl]
1:00:38: Yeah and that is not what they are supposed to do. If they have a story, they are supposed to check it all out but they didn't. They just repeated everything that was being said and that the change...
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:00:49: First time I ever saw that, I was telling you I was at the group called Uncover Michael Jackson's name. Well I remember when the very first time we were on the news or something like that or either something was written about us but whatever it was, it looked like it was cut and pasted into every other place and nobody ever wrote anything, nobody ever investigate it, nobody ever tried to find out anything or to move on anything. They just cut and paste. People didn't even change the words that had been misspelled.
[David Nordahl]
1:01:29: That's right.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:01:30: And that is what I think about Michael, they just, you know, they didn't even cared if, gee, if it sell.
[David Nordahl]
1:01:35: Yeah.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:01:36: You know. (Crosstalk) if it bleeds, it leads or something like that.
[David Nordahl]
1:01:44: Yeah, that's right, that's exactly right and the media has...
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:01:50: Dealing with that--how did he cope with dealing with the tabloids, you know?
[David Nordahl]
1:01:58: Well, you know earlier one, because I forget what it was that was written about him. It wasn't true and I know it wasn't true. It was on the tabloids and so I asked Michael, I said "why don't you do something about those, you know, these people should not be allowed to print things that are not true and have no base at all" and he said "well" he said "when you're on the top of your game, you know, if you are an entertainer or singer or whatever that if you try to respond, it just gets worse", so he just choose to keep his mouth shut and I told him, so why don't you go on some talk shows or something, your have chance for people to get to know who you are. He said "oh no I could never do that". I said "why not?". He said "well, I don't really have an interesting life". He said "I work all the time". He did not think he is interesting enough to go on a talk show.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:03:02: Oh my God.
[David Nordahl]
1:03:02: I know.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:03:05: My oh my.
[David Nordahl]
1:03:06: Exactly.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:03:10: This is all I do its work. (Crosstalk) yeah and that's what the problem was, he says nobody knows me. That's why people get...
[David Nordahl]
1:03:24: I know. Yeah. It was all trajectory in all of you. He was an enigmatic figure. Then people did not know what to make of them and, so if people don't know what to make of you, then they make up stories.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:03:40: Right. Because they want to have something and they don't have anything to say. I mean, it won't sell if you say "Michael Jackson was at the hospital and he helped a little boy".
[David Nordahl]
1:03:56: No. They are not interested in that.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:03:59: They want to hear that Michael Jackson went to the hospital and took the little boy and stuffed him under his jacket. (Crosstalk) something stupid like that.
[David Nordahl]
1:04:08: No exactly yeah. You know, after both of those times when he was accused, I got a call from all the rags and they had cash money. They were running around with the rags from England who are over here with suitcases full of money.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:04:27: To pay you?
[David Nordahl]
1:04:30: Yeah. To pay anybody that would talk about Michael, but it had to be negative stuff. I told him I said "I don't know anything bad about Michael, I said I can't help you". I know that one time they wanted to know who all those children were in the--to fill the dreams. I say "hey they are all made up. I made them up", you know, I did not know photos to work from. I just made all that's stuff up and so they were disappointed at that but I got many calls, you know, that wanted me to talk about Michael something they could dig up, you know, something new that was bad about Michael but I didn't know anything. So, what can I say?
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:05:18: Right, because there is nothing bad to say about it that and obviously that's the reason they needed to bring a case of money.
1:05:18: Right, because there is nothing bad to say about it that and obviously that's the reason they needed to bring a case of money.
[David Nordahl]
1:05:29: Yeah. Oh absolutely surely.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:05:31: Because all of money. If don't have something bad to say. You might think of something bad to say.
[David Nordahl]
1:05:36: Of course and people did. People did and they took the money and one lady that worked at the ranch. She took 35,000 and she apologized afterwards and she was crying and all that stuff because Michael had actually helped her. She was a single mother will a daughter and he bought a TV for her and given her some money at one point, you know, and then turned around and bite someone in the back like that. It's just...
1:05:36: Of course and people did. People did and they took the money and one lady that worked at the ranch. She took 35,000 and she apologized afterwards and she was crying and all that stuff because Michael had actually helped her. She was a single mother will a daughter and he bought a TV for her and given her some money at one point, you know, and then turned around and bite someone in the back like that. It's just...
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:06:06: Wow.
[David Nordahl]
1:06:08: Human beings are no damn good.
1:06:08: Human beings are no damn good.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:06:11: Right. I mean, just like that.
1:06:11: Right. I mean, just like that.
[David Nordahl]
1:06:14: Just for money.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:06:16: Just for money. For the love of money. So, now we have, you know, we've got a lot of kids that--is not as though Michael they just heard Michael, you know, like right now, this whole thing about Michael being on drugs and all of that and I don't see it. I don't see and somebody told me that I was being--I was in denial and I am telling people I have been the therapist in three different hospitals with addictions of all kinds and still not even trying to hear it. I'm not over here being in denial. I am just saying that there are people that take medicines and the medicine you can become dependent on the medicines. It's as simple as that.
[David Nordahl]
1:07:07: I remember back in--remember when Michael got burned. Remember that Pepsi ad? He got his head burnt and during the time that after he got burned, they inserted a balloon under his scalp and I even felt a bit and it was really big because they have to pull, you know, to expand the skin so they can cover that spot that got burned out.
1:07:07: I remember back in--remember when Michael got burned. Remember that Pepsi ad? He got his head burnt and during the time that after he got burned, they inserted a balloon under his scalp and I even felt a bit and it was really big because they have to pull, you know, to expand the skin so they can cover that spot that got burned out.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:07:38: Right.
[David Nordahl]
1:07:40: During that time with Michael was at a lot of pain and that was when he started taking pain pills for the pain because the pain was excruciating and then I remember he got hooked on those which does not take very long to do but he didn't know anything about that. He did know anything about drugs. He have never taken a drug. He has never even taken an aspirin, so but then he got clean. He got away from that and, you know, over the years I spend a lot of time with him, all different times of the day, early in the morning, all day long, late into the night, sometimes in the middle of the night when Michael couldn't sleep. I never ever saw him that would be under the influence of any kind of drug or painkiller or anything like that and I only saw him drink wine two times, that was once when I was in New York with Ian and Lisa Marie and the other time when I was out to California down at La Jolla and that was just a short glass of wine, but there are these people out there, they are just thinking that he has taken all of these drugs and he is all drugged out, everything, I never saw it, I'm sorry.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:09:01: I can understand. I can understand him being in pain with every single that went on with him and I can understand his pain and I can understand him having--becoming dependent. There are drugs that you will become dependent on but you are not--let me say, you are not getting high. You are dependent if you don't take it then the problem will return, that's all. But I think Michael have something inserted in his body that would make sure that his body did not respond to any opiate. So he get the part that kill the pain but the other part they would make you feel like you were high or something but part that the real addict one, he had to pull totally out. So, he had a different kind of thing going on, so that's why I don't understand why people are saying "Oh gee, you're an addict because of what he did". It's what the addict doesn't want to do. It's like you want to get high, right?
[David Nordahl]
1:10:11: Right, sure of course.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:10:14: So you can't do that if you take the opiate out.
[David Nordahl]
1:10:18: And I can understand him using the propofol one. He doesn't want to use getting ready for This Is It concert there is so much pressure on him because you know it started out being 10 performances and overtime, it grew to 50. I mean good Lord that an unbelievable on a concert and for him who has trouble sleeping and with all that pressure that makes it even harder for him to sleep, he needed to do something. Either to back out of the show or do something, so he gets some sleep.
1:10:18: And I can understand him using the propofol one. He doesn't want to use getting ready for This Is It concert there is so much pressure on him because you know it started out being 10 performances and overtime, it grew to 50. I mean good Lord that an unbelievable on a concert and for him who has trouble sleeping and with all that pressure that makes it even harder for him to sleep, he needed to do something. Either to back out of the show or do something, so he gets some sleep.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:10:56: Right. Well I never really quite understood. You know, I think that people like, you know, not that he even wanted to talk about him but I think that people like Murray, they start out with this extreme admiration, but I think admiration going crazy is actually what jealousy is.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:11:24: I think that's what happened to him, you know, right now, we are trying to work to make sure that there is something we can do for either for him, not to come out so early, number one or number two for him not to come out and sell a lie, another, you know, I did already call on. We've call no--I forgot what's the name of the call is. I don't know what it was but anyway, but it basically it boiled down as if you don't have any facts, you cannot put this up and you call it up and make it look like it's factual, like its something that's history. It was called no documentary and there were never any documents to any of this. Everything that is, its all hearsay and this, a beautiful man and, you know, because or else we would not be here, you know?
[David Nordahl]
1:12:27: Yup.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:12:28: That's why were here. So we know that he is not there with the drug. What we want to know though is we want to know about the Michael that we miss. The other things we're talking about that isn't even that the Michael that someone else built. You know what I'm...
[David Nordahl]
1:12:56: I totally agree. I don't recognize him through the media at all.
1:12:56: I totally agree. I don't recognize him through the media at all.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:13:01: That is not even, you know, that's not even--that's not at all that has nothing to do. This is a person to me that was incredibly spiritual.
1:13:01: That is not even, you know, that's not even--that's not at all that has nothing to do. This is a person to me that was incredibly spiritual.
[David Nordahl]
1:13:13: Oh yeah.
1:13:13: Oh yeah.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:13:14: I don't see you going in there and reading a book of scripture and then popping some __1:13:23__ tablets at the same time.
[David Nordahl]
1:13:28: No.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:13:29: I don't see it. I don't think that Michael would do that.
[David Nordahl]
1:13:32: No. He wouldn't. No he sure would not.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:13:38: But, you know, what about, you said the press was really, really on him. What they have to do regarding, you know, the thing with the _1:13:53_ are they the people that started the lie about him trying to be white?
[David Nordahl]
1:14:01: You know, I don't know where that started from. I have a feeling it started over in England, I think, with some of the rags but then it was just repeated.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:14:12: With England, someone told me about--told me to quit my--she says "quit your bellyaching or something" because I did not think that and I still do not think that Justin Bieber should have taken Michael's record without permission and its selling like wow in the UK.
[David Nordahl]
1:14:44: Oh was that right?
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:14:46: Yeah. He had a record called Slave to the Rhythm that was never produced. I mean it was never released, whatever and so Justin Bieber took it and Justin Bieber is likes it's a duet or something.
[David Nordahl]
1:15:04: I didn't know that.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:15:06: So, I mean, so for Michael, he is not getting a chance even now, that's why its so important that we talk about Michael who he was. That's why this conversation is so important. We want to make it plain because we got people and caught on as we speak and everything they can to tear him down and that's why I'm telling you David, tell us all about it. We need to know. We need to have a testimony that talks about Michael really was and yet is actually in the mind of all us.
[David Nordahl]
1:15:46: That's right. But he was just a great guy, you know, off stage he was just a regular guy and all of the sudden people call him Wacko Jacko and all that kind of stuff but, I don't know it just seemed to me that he was more normal than 99% of the people out there.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:16:06: Right I don't see, I never could see what was so Wacko. I never did get that.
[David Nordahl]
1:16:11: I didn't either, you know, yeah. He will be outside and he was in daytime and he would have a hat on and sometimes he would have a mask over his face or an umbrella or something and people thought that was weird, but the vitiligo that he had he could not allow the sun to touch his skin, not even touch it. Most of the time, you know, when I was with Michael. We'd hangout outside at night and he love to do that because he love the outdoors, but he really had a difficult time for him to be outside in the day time when the sun was shining.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:16:51: That had to be really awful for him.
[David Nordahl]
1:16:53: He put mask on his kids for the obvious reason that after Michael had children, he worried that the kids would be harmed somehow or kidnapped or something and so, he did not want their faces exposed. Therefore the kids could go somewhere with someone else and they wouldn't have to wear mask because nobody knew what they look like. Michael and the kids came here to Santa Fe and we went to a movie which is weird. It was on Memorial Day weekend and we went to an opening of The Day After Tomorrow. It was a film by a director that Michael knew and so he wanted to see the film. It was just opening and the theater was in the mall on the north side of town and memorial day weekend, the parking lot was absolutely jammed there wasn't even a parking place in there and were going to go to a movie, you know, I have gone to movies before and Michael was always to a screening room or something where its just us. I could not believe were trying to go to a movie and so I took the kids and went inside and we got tickets and the three kids, of course they did not have to wear mask because, you know nobody knew they belong to Michael and so we went in and got our popcorn stuff, got sat down in a theater and then when the film started and the theater got dark and Michael came in the backdoor, walked up the aisle and sat down with us and he is wearing, and I call them silk pajamas, but there, you know, the Chinese things that look like pajamas, those silks and they're beautiful, but that is what he is wearing and a baseball cap.
1:18:49: And we sat to the whole movie and I am thinking before this movie ends, we better get up and get moving and but we kept sitting there and sitting there and sitting there and the movie came to an end and the lights came up and the theater was jammed, it was absolutely packed and so everybody got up and shuffled out and they all got passed us, we got up and went out the backdoor. I was so shocked that nobody realized who it was, but they didn't. Nobody said a word. But you can see that when the kids were with me there wasn't a problem because they did not know what the kids look like, so the kids could do whatever they wanted.
TECHNICAL DIFFICULTIES
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:21:01: Alright but were back together?
1:21:01: Alright but were back together?
[David Nordahl]
1:21:05: Pardon?
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:21:06: You are able to hear me now?
[David Nordahl]
1:21:09: Yeah. I can hear you just fine. Can you hear me?
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:21:12: Oh yes. Absolutely. Okay that was kind of (crosstalk) I want the people, you know, not to just sit there and then wonder why things didn't go, this was a good time for you to call in and if there are things that you want to ask David, you can do it. Yes. You can do it. We'll just wait out here and we are chatting about different things like, the press and some of the things that we know about, what we really do want to do is we want to get down to who Michael was from within. We--I really want to talk about Michael's heart and his spirit and what made him. We said that, you know, he didn't think very much of himself and I kind of wonder how he did not think much--think well of yourself and then do so much for others.
[David Nordahl]
1:22:14: I know, I think it's just because. He just demanded so much of himself in a way with music and his public service that I don't think he ever reached the level that he wanted to be at, that's all. No doubt Michael was a good person. He was an accomplished entertainer, a great benefactor, so I don't know but I just had--always had that feeling that Michael did not come up to his own standards that he did not meet what he thought he should be.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:22:53: Well, he was a perfectionist. You never saw him _1:22:56_
[David Nordahl]
1:22:57: It is perfectionism. It's wanting to make sure that everything is always the best that you can possibly make it.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:23:06: Well what happened with him on Dave Dave or Dave's last name, really wasn't Dave. You know, do you know the real father who set him on fire?
[David Nordahl]
1:23:21: Oh god. Oh man. That was horrible. God Michael paid for over 50 surgeries for that little guy.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:23:32: And so what, you know, how did things work out for him?
[David Nordahl]
1:23:38: I don't know. I never heard about that afterwards, you know, I don't know what happened to him, but I know Michael...
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:23:47: But I know that I saw him, I saw him well before _1:23:53_ went off the air, Larry King live. I saw him. That's the last time I saw him.
[David Nordahl]
1:23:58: What was that right?
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:23:59: And I think Michael had already made his transition.
[David Nordahl]
1:24:05: Yeah. Yeah.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:24:07: So, I think he said that Michael promised to take care of him for the rest of his life.
[David Nordahl]
1:24:15: Yeah. I'm sure he did. I'm sure Michael--well that's something Michael would do. That's something Michael would do.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:24:26: Poor guy, to have your father just decide to burn you up.
[David Nordahl]
1:24:31: How can I get any worse than that. I mean, that's just--that's something you can't even think about. It's just awful. I know Michael, he's just crushed. He did everything for that little guy.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:24:51: Well I'm glad he helped him. I'm glad he helped him.
[David Nordahl]
1:24:56: Well, yeah. Anybody that Michael heard about like that he would rush in and do everything he could, you know, he paid for so many surgeries, when I was with him and Lisa Marie in New York, there was that boy, I don't remember if it's a Bosnia or Yugoslavia or where he is from but he needed a heart transplant or heart surgery, I think, I think it was heart surgery and so Michael and Lisa Marie offered to pay for the surgery which was supposed to be $125,000 but when they found out it was Michael Jackson and Lisa Marie that were paying for it, the price went up to $250,000.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:25:43: Oh lord, have mercy.
[David Nordahl]
1:25:45: Isn't it (crosstalk)
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:25:47: Yes.
[David Nordahl]
1:25:48: Yeah. They doubled it.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:25:50: Well, I'm just glad you didn't say a million.
[David Nordahl]
1:25:53: Yeah. God. They could have, I mean, those kinds of things has really disappointed Michael, you know, that he is trying to do something good and then people try to take advantage of it.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:26:06: And now, there is no one to take advantage of all these people, these tabloid writers where are they? I haven't heard any and these people, this Dimond, Diane Dimond person, she--there is no information on her. There really is no information. You can go on, you can find her per--something like a resume about her but you--it's not like Michael whose life was open. We know about him from being 5 years old.
[David Nordahl]
1:26:43: Absolutely.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:26:44: But half of her life was missing and if you go and do a search on her which I did, I did it because I wanted to know why anybody would talk like that about Michael.
[David Nordahl]
1:26:56: I know.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:26:57: I just really wanted to understand what kind of woman this was that would do something like that to a sweet guy like Michael. (Crosstalk)
[David Nordahl]
1:27:06: Even after of the trial. Even after he is found innocent.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:27:12: Yes. That point you really want to tell and these people, back to those MSNBC thing, they have now decided that she is an expert on child molesters, now how is a person become an expert on child molestation? How does that happen?
[David Nordahl]
1:27:39: Self-declared, I think.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:27:41: Well they put her up there they said that, you know, they hire her. Whoever that person was, somebody that was over a university but anyway, they immediately hired her because they felt she knew so much about it, so that when the live when out that were damaging to Michael, they were also empowering to other people. So it took some that were good and lifted up--sit down the good and lifted up the bad and the ugly.
[David Nordahl]
1:28:12: I know.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:28:14: You know?
[David Nordahl]
1:28:15: I know.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:28:16: Maybe because she doesn't have that knowledge. She doesn't?
[David Nordahl]
1:28:23: Nope. That's what so frustrating, you know, so frustrating.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:28:30: But you were telling us about Michael and his purpose. Michael felt that his purpose was to help children. If he had gone on a talk show and explained that, do you think that would have been well-received?
[David Nordahl]
1:28:54: I am not sure. I think if he had done real early young, before all the conjecture and all of the people making up stories about him. I think if he had gone early in his career, will it had to be almost a child, like a teenager or something, but I think it would have then, but I am not sure later on. I don't think going out a talk show or talking. You know, (crosstalk)
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