Monday, July 21, 2014

God's Glorious Animals and Why Michael Loved Them So Much 08/02 by Rev Dr Catherine M Gross | Culture Podcasts

God's Glorious Animals and Why Michael Loved Them So Much 08/02 by Rev Dr  Catherine M Gross | Culture Podcasts

August 2 at 1:00 pm CST    Call in to speak with the host  (347) 989-8104



“...I enjoy nature too much.... I know the tree feels it when the wind blows through it. It probably goes, “Ohhhh, this is wonderful.” And that´s how I feel when I´m singing some songs. It´s wonderful.”
"Plus, I’m crazy for birds and animals and puppies. And I love exotic things. I’ve had llamas, peacocks, a rhea, which is the second largest bird in the world, a macaw, which is the largest parrot from South America, pheasants, racoons, chickens….everything. Now, I’m gonna get a faun. And a flamingo.... I want a chimpanzee – they’re so sweet. Oh, I have such a good time with the animals. I have a wonderful relationship with animals, they really understand me.... I’d like to get into the whole veterinarian thing and learn the behaviour of animals. Dogs may see in black and white. Dogs might even see the wind. And what about the king cobra – what makes him come up when they play that pipe?"
Michael Jackson, Melody Maker music newspaper, 1980

Tuesday, March 11, 2014

Happy Birthday Michael Jackson:From the other side of 47th street

Presently the nation is in a state of flux. There is profuse anxiety about the impending position of America. The battle for the presidency of US has become increasingly fierce, and shows no signs of slowing down. Many have grown weary of negative and hurtful words being hurled. It is a matter of politics. However, most of what people believe was conceived by the repetition of philosophies that became embedded in their minds. That is the essence of what politics are. They force us to develop opinions, without considering whether those opinions were founded in truth. The world has seen it before, felt it before and lived painfully through it before. The entire world watched as the slanderous pursuit of Michael Jackson consumed decades of his life. What makes it politics? According to Dictionary.com, it is political if it involves methods and maneuvers, or principles and opinions. Unquestionably, such elements were enlisted to plague Michael Jackson, the most famous and beloved man on this planet. August 29 is the birthday of Michael Jackson, and a global community will strive to overcome that shameful era, in celebration of his birth. Happy Birthday Michael Jackson …
Michael Jackson was a casualty in the politics of time. In the early days the politics were a proclamation of segregation. Music provided therapy to the agonizing world, of many African Americans. Michael Jackson was also among them. It was an amazing time in life. In the most desolate surrounding, were the most melodic sounds. On every other corner there was a singing group, singing “doo wops”. Then Michael came. Albeit Michael Jackson came from Gary Indiana, the hot spots were in Chicago and subsisted in the Black Metropolis, on the “other side” of 47th street. That’s where it was all happening. Michael and his brothers, like many before them were discovered at the Regal Theater. Everything was on the other side of 47th street. African Americans were rarely accepted south of 47th. The Black Metropolis even had its own mayor, that’s how segregated Chicago was. The neighborhood children rushed to see every stage show that The Jackson Five performed in. They were magnificent. Young Michael Jackson could do everything that James Brown could do. Michael Jackson was an amazing talent, indeed, and he grew from the squeals and cheers of delighted children, on the other side of 47th street.
The Regal Theater was a stepping stone embedded in the Chittlin’ Circuit. In fact, that is what made Michael Jackson so unique. He had been trained by the very best, because everybody, from the greatest to the least came through the Regal Theater.Bobby Taylor opened the door for the Jackson Five to be signed by Motown.
The Jackson Five soared in fame; the heart of the country was held captive and a lifelong love affair began. Michael Jackson was the beloved, and slowly began to sing solo’s. Ultimately Michael left the group and struck out on his own. Amazingly, many of Michael’s fans had never considered his birthday; in fact it had never been revealed. Michael Jackson was a Jehovah’s Witness, and birthdays were not celebrated. Today, it is a different story.
“Michael Jackson is one of the most widely beloved entertainers and profoundly influential artists of all time. He has left an indelible imprint on popular music and culture, and his fans span all across the globe. With all the cultural barriers that he has broken down, there is a very small chance that a person does not know his name. People of all ages also enjoy the music of the “King of Pop”. On or near Michael’s birthday, fans and lovers of his music celebrate his life and legacy, and traditionally his pilgrimage to New York City, Los Angeles, CA, Chicago, IL and Gary, IN.“ http://tinyurl.com/9vhkw2q
On Aug 29 the world will celebrate the life and accomplishments of Michael J. Jackson. His impact will be felt forever. Universities have begun to teach courses on the life of Michael Jackson. Courses could well be taught in Religion, History, Humanities, Sociology as well as Psychology and certainly Music and Dance. Michael Jackson’s heart was huge and his achievements were numerous. Following are a few of those things which made the world love him so much. Michael Jackson was an incredibly outstanding man. Dr. Wayne Dyer speaks about Michael Jackson-Video
“July, 1981:
Concert in Atlanta Georgia, Triumph Tour, - benefit concert raises $100,000 at the Omni Auditorium in Atlanta, Georgia for the Atlanta Children’s Foundation in response to a series of kidnappings and murders that had been plaguing the children of Atlanta for months.
‘January 10, 1984:
During the filming of Pepsi commercials, Michael Jackson is burned. As a result of the on-set accident, he is admitted to the Brotman Medical Center in Culver City, California. Despite palm-sized second and third-degree burns to the back of his head when pyrotechnics, somehow, went awry, Jackson visited several other burn patients and later donated a hyperbaric chamber (used to treat burn victims) in addition to a large donation toward preparing and equipping the Michael Jackson Burn Center.
‘April 14, 1984:
Michael equips a 19-bed-unit at Mount Sinai New York Medical Center. This center is part of the T.J. Martell-Foundation for leukemia and cancer research.
‘July 5, 1984:
Michael Jackson and his family hold a press conference to announce the changing of the ticket distribution system for the Victory Tour. During his speech, he announces, “Finally, and most importantly, I want you to know that when I first agreed to tour, I decided to donate all the money I make from our performances to charity." Three charities benefited from Michael's generosity: The United Negro College Fund established the Michael Jackson Scholarship Fund which, by 1988, had provided scholarships for 70 students at UNCF member schools, Camp Good Times for terminally ill children and the T.J. Martell Foundation for Leukemia and Cancer Research “ http://tinyurl.com/njzflm
The kindness of Michael Jackson is so extensive that it would be an incredible feat simply to list them. This is why we celebrate Michael Jackson. Proven lies, slander and constant humiliation were promoted far more than the truth of who he was and all he has done. From times gone by, on the other side of 47 street and from this side of heaven, happy birthday Michael Jackson.

Do we love our children,really?

I'll pay to save liver boy, say's Jackson
November 20th was Universal Children’s Day. It went by with no fanfare, and no notice. The fathers are saddened because they do not get the attention on their day as mothers do. Nevertheless, often, neither mother nor father are aware of Children’s Day. Do we love our children, really?
The word ‘love’ has is used very loosely. Not many can define it, and only a rare few understand it, it is in fact quite a dismal consideration. We struggle in our search to clearly say what love is. There are a couple of explanations we can look at. There is the biblical definition of love in 1st Corinthians 13:4-7;
4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 [b]bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
The problem with the biblical definition is it does not say what it is, it only says what it is not. Certainly we can check the dictionary as well. Merriam Webster defines love as;
(1) : strong affection for another arising out of kinship or personal ties (2) : attraction based on sexual desire : affection and tenderness felt by lovers (3) : affection based on admiration, benevolence, or common interests (2) : warm attachment, enthusiasm, or devotion
The definition given by Merriam Webster is seemingly easier to grasp.
Again, the question is, ‘Do we love our children”. Here are some statistics that are worth concentrated thought.
1)A report of child abuse is made every ten seconds
2) More than four children die every day as a result of child abuse.1
3) It is estimated that between 50-60% of child fatalities due to maltreatment are not recorded as such on death certificates. 3
4) Approximately 80% of children that die from abuse are under the age of 4. 1
5) More than 90% of juvenile sexual abuse victims know their perpetrator in some way. 4
6) Child abuse occurs at every socioeconomic level, across ethnic and cultural lines, within all religions and at all levels of education.
7) About 30% of abused and neglected children will later abuse their own children, continuing the horrible cycle of abuse. 5
8) In at least one study, about 80% of 21 year olds that were abused as children met criteria for at least one psychological disorder.
http://www.childhelp.org/pages/statistics#abuse-conseq
Universal Children’s Day was declared by the United Nations in 1924, “ By resolution 836(IX) of 14 December 1954, the General Assembly recommended that all countries institute a Universal Children's Day, to be observed as a day of worldwide fraternity and understanding between children. It recommended that the Day was to be observed also as a day of activity devoted to promoting the ideals and objectives of the Charter and the welfare of the children of the world. The Assembly suggested to governments that the Day be observed on the date and in the way which each considers appropriate. The date 20 November, marks the day on which the Assembly adopted the Declaration of the Rights of the Child, in 1959, and the Convention on the Rights of the Child, in 1989.”
PREAMBLE
DECLARATION OF THE RIGHTS OF THE CHILD
Adopted by UN General Assembly Resolution 1386 (XIV) of 10 December 1959
WHEREAS the peoples of the United Nations have, in the Charter, reaffirmed their faith in fundamental human rights and in the dignity and worth of the human person, and have determined to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,
WHEREAS the United Nations has, in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, proclaimed that everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth therein, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status,
WHEREAS the child, by reason of his physical and mental immaturity, needs special safeguards and care, including appropriate legal protection, before as well as after birth,
WHEREAS the need for such special safeguards has been stated in the Geneva Declaration of the Rights of the Child of 1924, and recognized in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and in the statutes of specialized agencies and international organizations concerned with the welfare of children,
WHEREAS mankind owes to the child the best it has to give,
Now, therefore, Proclaims
THIS DECLARATION OF THE RIGHTS OF THE CHILD to the end that he may have a happy childhood and enjoy for his own good and for the good of society the rights and freedoms herein set forth, and calls upon parents, upon men and women as individuals, and upon voluntary organizations, local authorities and national Governments to recognize these rights and strive for their observance by legislative and other measures progressively taken in accordance with the following principles:
http://www.un.org/en/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=A/RES/1386%20(XIV)&referer=http://www.un.org/en/events/childrenday/&Lang=E
To date, the only person many of us have ever heard discuss the “Universal Children’s Bill of Rights’ is Michael Jackson in his speech at Oxford University for “Heal the Children”
“As you all know, our two countries broke from each other over what Thomas Jefferson referred to as "certain inalienable rights". And while we Americans and British might dispute the justice of his claims, what has never been in dispute is that children have certain inalienable rights, and the gradual erosion of those rights has led to scores of children worldwide being denied the joys and security of childhood.
"I would therefore like to propose tonight that we install in every home a Children's Universal Bill of Rights, the tenets of which are:”
1. The right to be loved without having to earn it
2. The right to be protected, without having to deserve it
3. The right to feel valuable, even if you came into the world with nothing
4. The right to be listened to without having to be interesting
5. The right to be read a bedtime story, without having to compete with the evening news
6. The right to an education without having to dodge bullets at schools
7. The right to be thought of as adorable - (even if you have a face that only a mother could love).
‘Friends, the foundation of all human knowledge, the beginning of human consciousness, must be that each and every one of us is an object of love. Before you know if you have red hair or brown, before you know if you are black or white, before you know of what religion you are a part, you have to know that you are loved.
‘If you enter this world knowing you are loved and you leave this world knowing the same, then everything that happens in between can he dealt with. A professor may degrade you, but you will not feel degraded, a boss may crush you, but you will not be crushed, a corporate gladiator might vanquish you, but you will still triumph. How could any of them truly prevail in pulling you down? For you know that you are an object worthy of love. The rest is just packaging.”
The rest of this speech is well worth reading, or even simply listening too. I urge readers to do that.
Because The United Nation’s proclaimed November 20th as Universal Children’s Day, countries all over the world celebrate that day in ways that they see best for helping children. President Barack Obama proclaimed the following for this year.
The White House
Office of the Press Secretary
For Immediate Release November 19, 2013
Presidential Proclamation -- National Child's Day, 2013
NATIONAL CHILD'S DAY, 2013
- - - - - - -
BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
A PROCLAMATION
"Each year on National Child's Day, America takes time to celebrate our most precious resource. We reaffirm our commitment to giving our next generation the tools to lead, innovate, and pursue their own measure of happiness.
'In the United States of America, no matter where you come from, who you are, or how you look, you should have a chance to succeed. That is why we must build ladders of opportunity for all children -- including high-quality preschool, strong education in key fields like math and science, and nutritious meals that give young people the energy to focus. Through First Lady Michelle Obama's Lets Move! Initiative, my Administration is helping children develop habits that will let them lead healthier lives, and we are partnering with businesses, local governments, and non-profit organizations to ensure families have the information they need to give our children the happy, healthy futures they deserve.
'Yet equal opportunity cannot exist while some parents are forced to choose between buying groceries, paying the rent, or taking their children to the doctor. Under the Affordable Care Act, new health insurance options are now available to millions of Americans. Millions of families will gain access to affordable coverage options through the new Health Insurance Marketplace, including through Medicaid in those States that have chosen to expand coverage. Thanks to this law, children can no longer be denied coverage because they have a pre-existing condition. And most health plans are covering recommended preventive services for children, including developmental screenings and immunizations, without cost-sharing.
'With the support of a Nation and the guidance of parents and mentors, our children can lead America into a bright new age. Today, let us strengthen our resolve to provide the opportunities their energy and creativity demand.
'NOW, THEREFORE, I, BARACK OBAMA, President of the United States of America, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Constitution and the laws of the United States, do hereby proclaim November 20, 2013, as National Child's Day. I call upon all citizens to observe this day with appropriate activities, programs, and ceremonies, and to rededicate ourselves to creating the bright future we want for our Nation's children.
'IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this nineteenth day of November, in the year of our Lord two thousand thirteen, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and thirty-eighth."
BARACK OBAMA
Well, we are not presidents, nor are we over nations, but what can we do of our own accord? Perhaps it would be worthy of each of us to let people know that this global holiday exists, then everyone can say what they are doing, in harmony with the rights that have been declared for children. It is actually possible to take such a matter and place it in your heart so strongly that no one and/or nothing can shake it away.
One month prior to Michael Jackson making his transition, his doctor felt the need to give him strong sedatives for reasons unknown. The doctor recorded Michael Jackson as he spoke. One would think that a person under such extreme drugs would be incoherent. However, Michael Jackson remained focused on doing his comeback show at a high quality, and on helping the children with the money he would make. We can be steadfast and focused too, absent of the drugs of course. Here is what Michael Jackson said.
“ I'm taking that money, a million children, children's hospital, the biggest in the world. Michael Jackson Children's Hospital. Gonna have a movie theater, game room. Children are depressed. The – in those hospitals, no game room, no movie theater. They're sick because they're depressed. Their mind is depressing them. I want to give them that. I care about them, them angels. God wants me to do it. God wants me to do it. I'm gonna do it, Conrad."
Murray: "I know you would."
‘Jackson: "Don't have enough hope, no more hope. That's the next generation that's gonna save our planet, starting with – we'll talk about it. United States. Europe. Prague, my babies. They walk around with no mother. They drop them off, they leave – a psychological degradation of that. They reach out to me – please take me with you."
Murray: "Mmnh-mmmh."
Jackson: "I want to do that for them."
Murray: "Mmnh-mmnh."
‘Jackson: "I'm gonna do that for them. That will be remembered more than my performances. My performances will be up there helping my children and always be my dream. I love them. I love them because I didn't have a childhood. I had no childhood. I feel their pain. I feel their hurt. I can deal with it. `Heal the World.' `We Are the World.' `Will You Be There?' `The Lost Children.' These are the songs I've written because I hurt, you know, I hurt.”
Michael Jackson literally died thinking of how he could help the children. He wanted everyone to know about Universal Children’s Day, that takes place each year on November 20th. I would that we could all be so concerned. We can learn about it, however. There is a Facebook group called National Children's Day Campaign (In memory of Michael Jackson). It is the purpose of that group to elevate the consciousness of all those who will hear, about this special day for children. The group is moving forward in its promise to honor Michael Jackson for all that he did for children.
The United Nations created this holiday, but it is up to us to celebrate and love our children. A little more about Childrens day. “Children’s Day is acclaimed in a multitude of countries. It is a global honor to all of our children. The World Conference began the holiday for the in 1925 for the security and happiness of children. Although it is the same holiday, each nation has given it the name they think is appropriate. In the United States it is called ‘National Child’s Day’. Following are some of the countries that recognize this day.
2.1 Argentina, 2.2 Armenia, 2.3 Australia, 2.4 Azerbaijan, 2.5 Bangladesh, 2.6 Bolivia, 2.7 Brazil,
2.8 Bulgaria, 2.9 Canada, 2.10 Central Africa, 2.11 Chile, 2.12 Greater China, 2.12.1 Hong Kong,
2.12.2 Mainland China, 2.13 Colombia, 2.14 Costa Rica, 2.15 Croatia, 2.16 Cuba, 2.17 Czech Republic,
2.18 Ecuador, 2.19 Egypt, 2.20 Finland, 2.21 Former and current Communist and Socialist countries
2.22 Germany, 2.23 Guatemala, 2.24 Honduras, 2.25 Hungry, 2.26 Haiti, 2.27 Indonesia, 2.28 India
2.29 Ireland, 2.30 Israel, 2.31 Japan, 2.32 Kazakhstan, 2.33 Democratic People's Republic of Korea 2.34 Republic of Korea, 2.35 Laos, 2.36 Malaysia, 2.37 Maldives, 2.38 Myanmar, 2.39 Mexico, 2.40 Mongolia, 2.41 Mozambique, 2.42 New Zealand, 2.43 Nigeria, 2.44 Nicaragua, 2.45 Norway 2.46 Pakistan, 2.47 Palestine, 2.48 Panama, 2.49 Paraguay, 2.50 Peru, 2.51 Philippines, 2.52 Poland 2.53 Portugal and former colonies, 2.54 Romania, 2.55 Russian Federation, 2.56 Singapore 2.57 South Africa, 2.58 South Sudan, 2.59 Slovakia, 2.60 Spain, 2.61 Sri Lanka, 2.62 Sudan 2.63 Sweden, 2.64 Taiwan, 2.65 Thailand, 2.66 Trinidad and Tobago, 2.67 Tunisia, 2.68 Turkey 2.69 Ukraine, 2.70 United States of America, 2.71 Uruguay, 2.72 Vanuatu, 2.73 Venezuela, 2.74 Vietnam 2.75 Zambia

An Unforgettable Journey, Michael and Me: DAVID NORDAHL (Part 1)

(This interview has 4 parts. To move to the next part press older posts at the end)
David Nordahl, personal artist for Michael Jackson

This is an interview of David Nordahl for Michael Jackson's 55th birthday. There are technical difficulties! Yet this was a delight for yours truly to do, in fact it was an honor.
An Unforgettable Journey, Michael and Me: DAVID NORDAHL
Aired: 8/29/2013 11:00 PM UTC
Host: Rev Dr Catherine M Gross
Description: We are about to embark upon a weekend of love, with David Nordahl as our Captain. Of my own account, I will tell you that the spirit of LOVE that flows from David as he speaks about Michael is breathtaking. A few years ago, I heard David speak in a taped interview. All I could think about was how much I wished that I could just tell him thank you for being such a loving and kind friend to Michael. David Nordahl was born in Albert Lea, Minnesota in 1941. He left the world of commercial art to work as Michael Jacksons private portraitist in 1988. He received a late night phone call from Jackson, who had recently seen a Nordahl painting in Steven Spielbergs office, depicting a 19th century raid on an Apache camp by US Army troops. Initially contacting Nordahl for art lessons, Jackson quickly found a kindred spirit and friend.
[Start of Transcript]
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
4:42: Hello lovely ones. I am so glad that we're together. I'm having a hard time talking actually right now because whenever I listened to that song (Childhood), it chokes me up. I kinda wonder who would not love Michael Jackson? What kind of person would not love Michael Jackson? I know that has nothing to do with us because we loved him. We loved him wildly and I want you to know, as I always want you to know, I love you, I love you so much, I love you because you are here, I love you because you love Michael. I love you because you love the thoughts of love, and you know what? There is nothing be wrong with that! Yeah, there is nothing wrong with that. So since nothing is wrong with that and we we're talking so much about love, I want you to know that I am so happy to have our guest tonight. I have wanted David Nordahl to come and speak for us forever for all of us who may have heard his original tape then you know, like I know, that it oozed with love and that is the most valuable thing. That's what it is, that's what it is, I can hear how much he loves Michael and what I wanted to do is, I wanted to just get a chance to say thank you David and I got the chance to do that... and you'll get a chance to that too. David is here with me right now. So, David say hi.
[David Nordahl]
6:29: Hi. I just wanted to say that, that song chokes me up too because it embodies Michael's whole purpose in life. He told me many times that we are all brought into this world to do something and he said "mine is to help children". He spent over third of billion dollars helping children. He built wings on hospitals orphanages. He did everything in his power to help children and that was the whole purpose of his entertainment to make that money so he could afford to do that.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
7:10: See that is just, we could never find a person like that again.
[David Nordahl]
7:16: Never! No. No. It's just such a shame someone who means so well is so persecuted, why is that I wonder?
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
7:29: I do wonder too, but after I -- I'm used on it, I'm used on this thing and it occurred to me that there are people who are afraid of, just like I said that we are love junkies. There are people that were afraid of it. They are so frightened of someone -- Michael is all squeaky clean, they had to find some mud.
[David Nordahl]
7:52: I know. I know.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
7:53: It is frightening for them; you know people think they are will be of worth, they were right. They were in the presence of angelic being and it scared them.
[David Nordahl]
8:06: I think so it had to be something like that because what a wonderful man and like I said his whole life he had a purpose to it and that was to help children and help people that were poor and that was his whole concern and for our planet as well.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
8:27: We're gonna keep trying to carry on his work. I don't know how we're doing with that. I think we're doing a pretty good job considering and that is what our plan is.
[David Nordahl]
8:46: We do and we can.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
8:47: Yeah to carry on but let's go to this thing. One of the reasons I played The Childhood is because as I was telling you that the part of all becoming a kindred spirit. Tells us about how you met him.
[David Nordahl]
9:06: Okay, I had gotten a call from Steven Spielberg 'cause I have done some paintings for him and he said expected call from Jon Voight because Jon Voight has been in his office and he just absolutely love my work and so Steven said "don't be surprised if he calls you" and so about two weeks after that somebody's personal assistant called me from Los Angeles and ask if I would send photographs of my work and I said sure. And I had an art show in Arizona. I think it was around February 13th and I had sent show brochure as well and so after I got home, it was about two or three days after I got home from a show. I was working because there was a show coming up in July. So I was already working hard for that and the phone rang about midnight I was still working. And normally when you get a call midnight it's usually an emergency or a family problem or something like that or some drunk trying to dial the phone rang and so when I pick the phone up but before he said this is Michael Jackson and I thought okay.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
10:26: Yes. Okay.
[David Nordahl]
10:27: It just going around the phone, but then right away he said, "thanks for sending the photos and the show brochure, so then I've done I made that sure that is where I have sent it too and so we talked. Oh, I don't know how long, I think about an hour Lorry felt it was about an hour and half, but we just talked on the phone and he had asked me if I gave painting lessons and I told him that I really didn't and so he asked, "would you give me painting lessons" and so I said that '"I am working on a show right now" and "I said let me think about for a few days and then I will let you know" and so two or three days after that, after I talked to him I found that he is on the Bad Tour they were opening at Kansas City and I felt well and I am gonna hear from him he is busy, but then Julie his personal assistant called me a couple of days after that and gave me a list of cities that they be playing and so I chose Denver because Denver was closed and so he said "Michael wants you to pack up all your stuff, your easel, your paintings, your paints and brushes and all that stuff created up and send that up to Denver". So I did he was not gonna take no for an answer on the painting lessons and so I sent everything up there and they send a limo to my house to drive me to the airport and I flew first class up to Denver and I had a driver when I got off of the airport. The driver that was my driver for the time I was there for that week and I went over the hotel and I got out the car and all this hotel employees lined up and so I was looking around to see who they were expecting. It was for me.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
12:32: Really.
[David Nordahl]
12:33: Yeah. I have never been treated like that at a hotel. I don't know if you have?
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
12:38: No, no absolutely not.
[David Nordahl]
12:41: Yeah, the manager was there and he told me anything I want at anytime just call, they will get it for me, which was absolutely true. I would call down for room service for breakfast and before I hang the phone up it was there. And my food is always hot, it as always good. Like I said, normally if I stayed at hotel and ordered room service food is cold so that was great and then shortly after I got the room maid delivered the big crate up there and I started on packing it and Julie called on the room said "Michael is really anxious to see you, would it be okay if you came down now and I said sure". So Julie and Michael and Chuck, his bodyguard came down to the room and Julie and Chuck stayed in the room for a little while after they came in. I am sure that was to see if there were any flaws about our conversation or any awkward places and as soon as I saw that Michael and I were getting along just fine then they left and so it was just a great week. We went to bookstores, we went to galleries that's funny because we cannot just go to a bookstore or gallery we have to phone ahead and they have to clear the place, all that stuff and we've gone to a gallery in Downtown Denver and so when we we're driving in a van so the van pulled up in the side walk and we jumped out, run in store, but it was like this outer shops we're around this inner core and was all glass towards the inner core and ride across again was a beauty shop and so after a while I am sure that they could spot Michael. He is wearing a black cap and wearing red shirt and so these ladies from the beauty shop started flowing across this inner core and they ended up hanging on the window and they had the blue towels or whatever those things are because we are having our hair down. Somewhat of a shampoo and so at that time then we had to leave because once that starts it's like water flowing towards you so you have to get out of there and so we did that while wrapping the course going to the concert which was unbelievable. I do not know how many of your listeners have been to a Michael Jackson concert but if they have they will never forget it. And the foreman who works so hard on the stage after the show was over he would need IVs because he was so dehydrated. He would lose like six pounds during a performance and he could not afford six pounds.

An Unforgettable Journey, Michael and Me: DAVID NORDAHL ( part two)


David Nordahl, personal artist for Michael Jackson

This is part two of our interview with David Nordahl. David Nordahl was born in Albert Lea, Minnesota in 1941. He left the world of commercial art to work as Michael Jackson's private portraitist in 1988. He received a late night phone call from Jackson, who had recently seen a Nordahl painting in Steven Spielberg's office, depicting a 19th century raid on an Apache camp by US Army troops. Initially contacting Nordahl for art lessons, Jackson quickly found a kindred spirit and friend. ( continued from part 0ne, published 10/15/13
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
16:01: All for Michael.
[David Nordahl]
16:03: Yeah. But we had a great time that week and so then he went on with his tour. I did work with Michael because I brought my drawing board too and I set up things and we practice doing certain things with pencil and colored pencil, but Michael was a perfectionist and so he would get angry at himself if what he was trying to do didn't work very well. He was so impatient with himself so we had a few lessons like that and I told him, it takes a long time to develop skills in art and you know he really didn't have the time to devote to that with his music and all the other things the he was doing, he simply did not have the time to sit down do the kind of practicing that he needed to do, but I am convinced though that if Michael had devoted himself to art, he would have been a great artist, but if he devoted himself to be a preacher, he would have been a great preacher. If he devoted himself to being a doctor he would have been a great doctor. So it did not really matter what he chose.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
17:22: If he had the spirit, to do whatever it was that he wanted to do.
[David Nordahl]
17:29: Absolutely! That's right and he always told me he said "you know I could be working on a gas station, if I have not been given this talent". He said "Who knows what I would be doing" and he so appreciated his fans. He did everything for his fans. He never ever forgot who was paying the bill. He always wanted his CDs or his records or the tapes that he did he always made sure that it was always the very best that could be done and you know if you listen to any of the CDs you can understand that. They are crystal clear and so he really, really, really appreciated his fans more than I think, most of his fans even know and when he said "I love you" to his fans, boy he really meant it.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
18:21: Oh! Goodness. I hope you guys heard that that he meant it. Now as this relationship moved on, I know that you left a job with commercial art. What made you stay with Michael so long? I know there had been more than painting.
[David Nordahl]
18:48: Yeah, he just -- it seemed like we formed the friendship right away, and so he was not just a client he was a good friend and I loved the fact that he was a perfectionist, because if you are a perfectionist you are always trying to do the very best you can possibly do, and I enjoyed that so I loved working with him. He never ever made demands on me that I could not do.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
19:22: Oh that's amazing, but as I told you before we started I said you know what you have to tell us the whole thing. Tell us all about -- every single thing even down to strolling to the store you know why, because I just loved the way you speak about him. I mean the idea that we know that you went to a -- he gave you an experience you had never had before this whole thing of going to a hotel. Now I cannot really imagine what it's like to go to telling be treated like royalty, (Crosstalk), what it's like someone to give you an experience that you never had before something surprisingly nice.
[David Nordahl]
20:18: Oh yeah, absolutely.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
20:19: Do you want me to answer calls while we're talking?
[David Nordahl]
20:22: Of course!
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
20:24: Okay, let see who this is but the person left.
[David Nordahl]
20:29: Oh, oh, they can't wait.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
20:30: They couldn't wait, I guess not.
[David Nordahl]
20:33: They have to try again.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
20:34: So if you want to call back, call back I am looking in so much stuff that probably they thought, they didn't see them. Anyway, So that's what it is so I can understand what it's like to have something new, something fresh, something concerning and caring.
[David Nordahl]
20:57: Yeah, Michael always treated me like I was a celebrity. I could not believe that. He always treated me that way, but Michael treated everybody with respect, great respect.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
21:17: We feel that he treated us with respect and it's just were most of the fans have never ever laid eyes on him really, but what he was like he was a family. I feel like he is part of my family. I was walking him grow up.
[David Nordahl]
21:36: Yeah. Me too.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
21:39: I feel like he is part of the family or something, like my little boys.
[David Nordahl]
21:44: Yeah. Like we -- many of us did that we watched him growing up. I remembered the first time he appeared on the Ed Sullivan Show, I was over to these peoples house and we are gonna to have dinner that was on the Sunday night and we got a call to dinner and I stood up and headed for dinning room and all of a sudden, there was this kid on the Ed Sullivan Show. It just stopped me doing my tracks because I could not believe that a little kid could sing with that kind of soul. Soul is developed overtime you know that. It takes life experience but he did not even need that I mean he was born with soul.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
22:28: That is amazing. That is just amazing.
[David Nordahl]
22:32: Yeah.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
22:42: I am trying to get for the people that are looking for the chat room I am having a hard time putting it up for you, oh I have gotten it. Yes, I have gotten the chat room. Yes, life is good. Life is good. Alright I have been on several different computers while we are talking to get a chat. Hello everyone welcome, welcome, welcome. I am so glad you are there mercy. So now as the friendship developed I mean you go from being business, working put work from being a client.
[David Nordahl]
23:26: Yeah.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
23:27: You know that commercial like this I am so and so I am also a client. You know some friend that. Anyway I am a friend but I am also a client. You go from being this from one stage to the other, what happens when you go pass it into the heart.
[David Nordahl]
23:49: Well, I think was Michael like I said I think we became kind instant friends and so after that initial meeting we head up in Denver Michael would call me a lot and I realized also when I got home from Denver this really was not about art lessons, this was more about -- this was like a meet and greet and he want to find out kinda who I was and what my thoughts were etc. before we started doing any paintings together. And so after that initial meeting, when he was tour and everything, he used to call me at all time, a lot of times late at night because Michael always had a hard time sleeping so a lot of times he called me at midnight or even later than that and we had certain chat for a while.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
24:44: That nice.
[David Nordahl]
24:47: Yeah and then he told me that during that time that he had a lot of projects so he wanted me to work on and if I was willing to do and I said "sure".
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
24:56: Tell me about this picture, it seems like the pictures it started out being just a normal size picture but ended that being something like 24 x 38 that the Children of the World picture.
[David Nordahl]
25:13: Yeah, that was that Michael called Field of Dreams. That started out as like you said it was a simple sketch and the original painting was going to be 9 feet x 12 feet and so then overtime, it kept growing and the next one was 9 feet x 20 feet and then 12 feet x 38 feet. And I felt bad because I did that sketch and I did over 5,000 drawings of different kids, different nationalities, different religions etc. to finally come up with the final painting, but if you can imagine the size of that and the number of figures, I would have had the paint over 300 figures in there. So there was not a project that I could retake on by myself. So I tried to get some commitments from some other artist that I knew that could help me at least get the painting wrapped in, but I could not get commitment because they have their own careers and things and so they could not take the time so the large painting never got done.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
26:24: Oh, would never get done.
[David Nordahl]
26:26: Never get done. It is just too big a task, I just can, would have taken years to complete that.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
26:33: To finish it, have been after what (crosstalk). Yeah, that would have, that is too much, but it is now okay so you just said that he spent like a third of a billions dollars helping kids. Do you think that it mattered or, I mean considering the way things go on in the world. We know about the little boys will deliver but for the most part, what defines do you think it made. I would have told you what I think in a minute, you could please tell me.
[David Nordahl]
27:13: Well I think his acts in the people that he impacted doing the things that he did I think he changed a lot of people's minds. I think anybody who worked with Michael on any of those projects or anything else I am sure understood Michael's spirit and hopefully they would continue on doing the kind of things that Michael would like them to do.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
27:42: I would hope so I think they will, I think that any of the people that are listening to the show, there are few countries listening to this show and all of them have been affected by Michael before, what he said he did have the internet, now he could talk to all of his fans but it was never like this, but before got to be like this, he was able to touch so many hearts all over the world.
[David Nordahl]
28:19: That is right.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
28:20: And that is the different side that he made.
[David Nordahl]
28:22: Oh yeah.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
28:27: I think it mattered up because even the kids say, he could not help. He touched the heart of others who would like to do what they saw him doing. (crosstalk)
[David Nordahl]
28:44: Yeah, I wanna tell you about the first night that I went to the concert and we had this hair-raising ride in three vans through Downtown, Denver and out to the stadium and when we got there, there was an area that was fenced off backstage had this metal pipes and then this dark blue curtains that hang on there and then there was a big sign there that said "absolutely no admittance", and then there was line of kids in wheelchair and respirators and all that kind of stuff. These were Make-A-Wish Foundation of kids that Michael went straight in there and he spent all that time before going on stage and there was those terminally ill children and that first night I thought something had gone back there and I ask Chuck I said that the boy past away and Chuck just nod at and so I think that little boy that was in there I think passed away and Michael went from there saying a prayer with all the people that were performing and not onstage. After the concert, I asked "Michael, how can you do that? How can you see these poor pitiful children and then go from there to performing?" and he said "How can I not?" He said "If I can extend the child's life for an hour or a day or a week or a month", he said "why wouldn't I do that?" It was a very simple answer. He had so much compassion for ill children and terminally ill children. That whole ranch was set up for that. All the rides were especially modified to make sure that special needs children's arms did not flop out or their hair didn't get caught in these things. He just had so much compassion and he would ... If a mother called and had a critically ill child or something, Michael would drop everything and go there and he would leave the child with something like a glove or something else. He would tell the child "I'm gonna be back here in two weeks", and I think it was just amazing how he actually extended some children's life just waiting for him to return. He told me, he said "I know I'm just a person". He said but Michael Jackson the entertainer means a lot to these children.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
31:52: I know, I read somewhere. I think it's the Rabbi Shmuley. If he thought he was saving that he has a healing power and Michael told him "Yes".

An Unforgettable Journey, Michael and Me: DAVID NORDAHL ( Part three)


The artist, David Nordahl


[David Nordahl]
32:08: Oh, I think he did, yeah. Yeah, he had to, just from the conversation we had. I think that's true. He did extend children's lives and he did everything he could in his power to do that. You look at some of these kids and all the surgeries he paid for and all the hospital bills and even helping the parents. Michael never talked about those things. You had to hear it from someone else because ... See Michael believed that if you did an act of kindness and then you talked about it or bragged about it or whatever, that it took all of the meaning away that was in your heart when you did it. So he was always very mute about things like that, the kindness that he did.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
33:06: Where was the ...Where were the paparazzi then?
[David Nordahl]
33:12: Exactly.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
33:14: Where were these (crosstalk) then when he was doing these things?
[David Nordahl]
33:16: Exactly. There you go. There you go.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
33:23: And you say if he got a call from ... A call and somebody was really sick or dying or something then he would show.
[David Nordahl]
33:31: Yeah. Of course he would. He never wanted to turn any child down.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
33:54: can't imagine Michael wanting to turn anyone down.
[David Nordahl]
34:00: No.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
34:02: Especially when you say that the kids, the kids that was his purpose and I really kind of wonder ... I wonder why when I listen to his song when he says, the kids have had their childhood stolen from them. Do you think that Michael might have been trying to renew their childhood?
[David Nordahl]
34:27: Well, yeah. I mean, Michael's own childhood was difficult because at a very young age, he was not able to go out and just hang out in the street and meet some other kid and play or shoot some hoops or something like that. He couldn't do that. He was kind of a prison of his own fame and so he knows what it feels like to be an outcast or to be different or not to have the kind of joy that kids are supposed to have like ... Michael was happiest when he was looking at kids that were having a great time. I remember when I was at the ranch and they were putting in the midway, the rides and stuff. That Halloween, Michael and I and Norma went driving in Michael's Chevy Blazer and we drove into Los Olivos, that little town, just so we could see the kids that were trick-or-treating. It's a really small town so all the kids are out. They're all running around, getting candy and everything, and they're having the time of their life, and they're all dressed up in costume. That just delighted Michael to see children having such a good time because he said that childhood was supposed to be fun.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
35:57: Yes. I think that perhaps he did not get a chance to have that fun. I think that he was called to do ... I don't think Michael really ... This is going to sound strange but he probably never was a child in the first place. I think perhaps he was called to experience what it was like to be a child.
[David Nordahl]
36:25: Oh, absolutely but you are right. He never was a child. I know it was very difficult for him those years but you think of the music that he put out and what he did. I mean, he was a student of music when he was a little kid. He would go to concerts and things where they were performing and then he would sit and watch the response of the audience to the performers that were on stage, to see the things that they responded to, and that helped him build an act. His act did not just happen by accident. His act was well-conceived and well thought out. He knew what he was doing.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
37:15: Oh, absolutely. I could see that. I could see that he ... What it was that we liked, he continued it.
[David Nordahl]
37:24: Yeah, absolutely and he wasn't all soul. I don't think you ever met Michael but if you're standing in front of him and you look into his eyes, you can see for a million miles. His eyes were eyes were absolutely unbelievable.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
37:45: What does that mean?
[David Nordahl]
37:48: It means he is an old soul. He has been around before think ... He's evolved.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
37:54: Oh, okay. Alright, and what that is ... This is to say that I have been doing these sermons about him. I wanted to do them every morning for his birthday weekend. I didn't wake up this morning so that was terrible but anyway that's the way. That's pretty much what the whole thing boiled down to is that he was somebody that was out there teaching people long before they knew they were being taught.
[David Nordahl]
38:26: Oh, yeah.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
38:28: So let's see. I've watching this thing. They have been showing all the short films that he did on Bad. I'm saying but even if you look at Bad, he's there teaching moral.
[David Nordahl]
38:40: Yes, of course. If you want to find out -
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
38:42: And most people would ? oh, go ahead I'm sorry.
[David Nordahl]
38:46: Oh, no. I was gonna says that if you want to find out who Michael was, just listen to his music.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
38:53: Right. That is why I like doing ... I was enjoying doing these sermons because he has so much music. He has got music that has like ... how do you make it through something.
[David Nordahl]
39:13: Of course. (Crosstalk)
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
39:14: You know, it's said that's not the way music is today. Today, the music calls your mama "b" and calls their girlfriend probably something even worse.
[David Nordahl]
39:29: Exactly.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
39:30: And what is insane is that the girls love it and they're like going "Oh, yes, I really love this person" and I think why? I wanna know why?
[David Nordahl]
39:46: That's right.
[David Nordahl]
39:53: Well, there are a few performers out there that had the kind of vision and purpose that Michael had. They just don't really exist. He was out there all by himself and he was teaching and he was trying to tell us. Take care of the kids. This is our future.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
40:46: They have like something in this ... I've just watched this because BET has been playing it for his birthday.
[David Nordahl]
40:52: Oh. Sure. I forgot to even check that channel. I should have done that.
42:17: Yeah, for the movie for Bad.
[David Nordahl]
42:20: Yeah. Oh, for Bad. Yeah.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
42:23: Yeah, but the idea is that Michael found ways to bring a message to you, you see? The message that I got was it's important for people to know that you think well of them. That's all. You're proud of them, like that.
[David Nordahl]
42:45: Yeah, and Michael probably did not get a lot of that because there is so much going out from him, that except for some close friends, that I think not much actually came back to him, you know what I mean? Because he gave and gave and gave and gave all the time so people are just used to it, I think.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
43:05: Oh, yes. I wonder if he ... I thought about that song he sang with this "How Many People Are Proud Of You" and he had a song that he sang called To Make My Father Proud.
[David Nordahl]
43:23: Yeah.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
43:24: And To Make My Mother Smile. So much of his music sounds like it's his life.
[David Nordahl]
43:32: Oh yeah. Absolutely.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
44:25: It is never his calling to be a child but perhaps to experience what a child went through and for the Christians out there, that's all that Jesus Christ was here. He was supposed to be experiencing what man went through. Okay.
[David Nordahl]
44:38: That's right. Yup.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
44:40: So like that, so I kind of wonder, did he ever come to grips was who he was on the inside. Did he ... What does he think about himself as a spiritual being.
[David Nordahl]
44:56: I think basically that Michael had low opinion of himself. I don't mean in everything. He was successful in everything so he understood all of that, but I think ... Michael is always trying to do more. I don't think he ever achieved what he expected of himself. Everything he did, he just tired so hard to do it better, do it more, and so I don't really think that he had a great concept of himself. I don't think so, I just don't. What do you think?
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
45:50: I think you're right, but I think it goes back to what we were saying about being proud. I think I might have helped if he had been able to call Joseph, daddy. It might have helped.
[David Nordahl]
46:03: Oh yes, absolutely. Oh yeah.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
46:04: If he able to have a father that would look at him and say "You know what, Michael? You are really good. I am so proud of you. I'm so proud of my son." He never got that.
[David Nordahl]
46:19: No, he sure did not. He sure did not, but he was a ... Joe, the tough customer. He always wanted more.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
47:59: What about the things that ... What about if he didn't think well of himself, what happened when his skin began to change?
[David Nordahl]
48:10: It had already begun when I met him. Of course, when he is not on stage or not in public, he was not wearing any makeup and I noticed that on his right neck and up into his cheek on the right side and also the back of his hand. I did not see his arm because he had a long sleeve shirt on, but that was 1988 and that's ... Vitiligo is usually carried in the genes. Usually other people in the family. Michael told me once that there was someone else in the family that had vitiligo. Michael just dealt with it. Michael didn't whine. I never ever heard Michael complaining about anything. He just dealt with whatever they threw at him. He's very (crosstalk) that way.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
49:13: Well, he said he had rhinoceros skin.
[David Nordahl]
49:18: Well and you know people so well. He's all white all over. Well, when the vitiligo had taken over to a certain degree, he could not use darker make up to hide that anymore because you know its vitiligo. It's not just white like Caucasian skin. It's white like the refrigerator.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
49:40: Right.
[David Nordahl]
49:40: So he had to keep getting lighter and lighter and lighter make up to be able to cover the dark spots that -
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
49:49: (Crosstalk) He started putting just a little bit darker makeup on it, right?
[David Nordahl]
49:54: Yeah.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
49:55: I hope so.
[David Nordahl]
49:57: Yeah. He had to do that and then it had to get lighter because there is more and more white skin that had to be covered.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
50:06: Well, he really, really, really had a rough case of it and I know that many of us have seen people with vitiligo, but I've never known what the name was before.
[David Nordahl]
50:22: Yeah. It's not that uncommon. I have seen people before with vitiligo. In fact, a friend of mine's son has vitiligo. There are quite a few cases of it around, but for people to be so cruel to accuse him of trying to be white which he has never ever tried to do. He was proud of his heritage. He would never have done that but accuse him even after people knew that he had vitiligo, you know? I've never been able to understand that and then...
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
50:55: I know what happened. I know what happened. Michael was so extraordinary that people did not think he was capable of being sick. They did not think anything could ... People remained and nobody dreamed that he would die. There are people that are still saying that he is someplace hiding because Michael was so high. I don't know if he's high spiritually. He is high in the minds of us all. That is why even when they had these people, even they were making those accusations against him, there were people who really were guilty and they never ever ... They never said anything about all those priest and different actors and so on. They never dealt with them because it was sort of like "Well, we know what they are". They're not an angel anyway, but Michael is like an angel.
[David Nordahl]
52:05: Yes he was. Yes he was.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
52:07: So that's what I'm saying. He was on this high plane so nobody could ever believe that anything could happen to him.
[David Nordahl]
52:15: Yeah, I guess you might be right about that. You might be right about that.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
52:21: It's like if it happens it's because Michael has ordered it to happen, you know?
[David Nordahl]
52:29: Yeah, I guess we have the same view. It never crossed my mind that I would outlive Michael. I mean goodness gracious sakes.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
52:36: Right. That's what I'm saying. Nobody would dream that and so I think. You know what? I kind of wonder like it seem to me that he never took time for himself. What do you think about that?
[David Nordahl]
52:55: They've never what?
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
52:56: He never took time for himself. I mean, even with him and the kids, giving, going out and he's spending his money to give the kids candy.
[David Nordahl]
53:06: Oh yeah. No, you're right. He didn't take time for himself. He never did. He would go places, but it was never ... I don't know. It was always for Soul in Richmond I think. It was never just kicking back. You know what I mean? Like most people go in a vacation and they go down by the ocean or something and roll up their chair and kick back on it get some rays and that kind of stuff. Michael is not like that. Michael was a 100% productive human being. That is why he had trouble sleeping was because he could never shut his mind off. He would tell me. He said "I wish I could claim that I wrote this music." He said but the fact is he said "I hear it in my head" and he said "I just perform it." Well, I know it's not that simple but there is just ... There are all that these things running through his head. Not just music, but other things too.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
54:10: Oh.
[David Nordahl]
54:12: That's why in 1993 ... 1993 when he was first accused was ... It kind of ... Michael's mind and his music and what he did was like a river and in 1993 somebody built a dam and stopped up that river. Michael was not one to stop doing anything. He was always pushing forward and doing things and writing music and appearing in concerts and all that stuff and all of a sudden, the brakes were put on. Then he got rolling again but then again in 2003 BAM! There's another dam again and, you know, that one he never really recovered from, I mean, he told me, he said "For all of the things I've done for kids" and he said "to be accused--like they are accusing me, how can they do that to me?" He was just so hurt that people would believe that he would harm a child. Michael would never do that, he would kill himself first, he would, he even said that.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
55:31: I looked at Michael and there is no way, there is absolutely no way. There is no way that he would hurt--do anything like that and I think that people had a problem. People have a problem with who he was and why he was not married and, you know, so on and so on and somehow, because I think that two people and I think they were both disgusting, Oprah and there is Martin Bashir person, you know, if we send those with a question dealing with some of his very personal life, you know, and I just thought to myself how awful. I like this thing, I like MSNBC because I am also a political junkie.
[David Nordahl]
56:32: Oh sure.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
56:33: And I tell you what, this whole little thing of this guy his name Martin Bashir, the one who made that movie Living With Michael. That was supposedly...(Crosstalk)
[David Nordahl]
56:52: Yeah, he just, you know, he edited everything around to make it fit his view because he knew that he would get great coverage by doing that. He--Michael only brought him to the ranch because Princess Diana had--he had written something about Princess Diana, he was really happy with what he did and that was the only reason Michael did that. Michael is always against doing things like that, he made a huge mistake
[David Nordahl]
58:10: I agree. I agree.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
58:12: Michael was more than just a--Michael was a civil rights of everybody. Every single person, you know, so I mean, so as Martin Luther King but Michael was global.
[David Nordahl]
58:29: Yeah, that is right.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
58:30: From the very beginning. He was global and, so I think that Martin, you know if he'd opened up his mouth and said the name Martin Luther King after doing what he did to Michael I might have hopped on the plane to fly to Atlanta and show my true colors. That man destroyed Michael's life and I just----I know you're supposed to forgive people and I am not angry anymore, but I will never forget what he did. I can never ever listen to him.
[David Nordahl]
59:12: I can't either. I cannot have anything to do with him, its just awful what he did to poor Michael. Michael is being so open.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
59:21: Yeah, Michael tried. Michael--he wanted somebody to help him and--it's almost like these things, somebody sent me something in the--somebody put something on there, it's from the--I'll show whatever it is. It's from The Lion King. It's the part where the __59:47__ Lion King is hanging on a ledge and he is asking his brother to help pull him up, but instead of the brother pulling him up, he stomps on his hands and makes him fall down and die.
[David Nordahl]
1:00:02: Yup.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:00:03: It just seemed so much that is the best effect...
[David Nordahl]
1:00:14: Oh yeah. Especially, but it wasn't just him, even mainstream media that were so cruel to Michael. Normally it's just the rags that probably show untrue things, but all of the major networks were repeating stories that were never...
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:00:36: From tabloids.
[David Nordahl]
1:00:38: Yeah and that is not what they are supposed to do. If they have a story, they are supposed to check it all out but they didn't. They just repeated everything that was being said and that the change...
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:00:49: First time I ever saw that, I was telling you I was at the group called Uncover Michael Jackson's name. Well I remember when the very first time we were on the news or something like that or either something was written about us but whatever it was, it looked like it was cut and pasted into every other place and nobody ever wrote anything, nobody ever investigate it, nobody ever tried to find out anything or to move on anything. They just cut and paste. People didn't even change the words that had been misspelled.
[David Nordahl]
1:01:29: That's right.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:01:30: And that is what I think about Michael, they just, you know, they didn't even cared if, gee, if it sell.
[David Nordahl]
1:01:35: Yeah.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:01:36: You know. (Crosstalk) if it bleeds, it leads or something like that.
[David Nordahl]
1:01:44: Yeah, that's right, that's exactly right and the media has...
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:01:50: Dealing with that--how did he cope with dealing with the tabloids, you know?
[David Nordahl]
1:01:58: Well, you know earlier one, because I forget what it was that was written about him. It wasn't true and I know it wasn't true. It was on the tabloids and so I asked Michael, I said "why don't you do something about those, you know, these people should not be allowed to print things that are not true and have no base at all" and he said "well" he said "when you're on the top of your game, you know, if you are an entertainer or singer or whatever that if you try to respond, it just gets worse", so he just choose to keep his mouth shut and I told him, so why don't you go on some talk shows or something, your have chance for people to get to know who you are. He said "oh no I could never do that". I said "why not?". He said "well, I don't really have an interesting life". He said "I work all the time". He did not think he is interesting enough to go on a talk show.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:03:02: Oh my God.
[David Nordahl]
1:03:02: I know.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:03:05: My oh my.
[David Nordahl]
1:03:06: Exactly.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:03:10: This is all I do its work. (Crosstalk) yeah and that's what the problem was, he says nobody knows me. That's why people get...
[David Nordahl]
1:03:24: I know. Yeah. It was all trajectory in all of you. He was an enigmatic figure. Then people did not know what to make of them and, so if people don't know what to make of you, then they make up stories.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:03:40: Right. Because they want to have something and they don't have anything to say. I mean, it won't sell if you say "Michael Jackson was at the hospital and he helped a little boy".
[David Nordahl]
1:03:56: No. They are not interested in that.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:03:59: They want to hear that Michael Jackson went to the hospital and took the little boy and stuffed him under his jacket. (Crosstalk) something stupid like that.
[David Nordahl]
1:04:08: No exactly yeah. You know, after both of those times when he was accused, I got a call from all the rags and they had cash money. They were running around with the rags from England who are over here with suitcases full of money.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:04:27: To pay you?
[David Nordahl]
1:04:30: Yeah. To pay anybody that would talk about Michael, but it had to be negative stuff. I told him I said "I don't know anything bad about Michael, I said I can't help you". I know that one time they wanted to know who all those children were in the--to fill the dreams. I say "hey they are all made up. I made them up", you know, I did not know photos to work from. I just made all that's stuff up and so they were disappointed at that but I got many calls, you know, that wanted me to talk about Michael something they could dig up, you know, something new that was bad about Michael but I didn't know anything. So, what can I say?
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:05:18: Right, because there is nothing bad to say about it that and obviously that's the reason they needed to bring a case of money.
[David Nordahl]
1:05:29: Yeah. Oh absolutely surely.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:05:31: Because all of money. If don't have something bad to say. You might think of something bad to say.
[David Nordahl]
1:05:36: Of course and people did. People did and they took the money and one lady that worked at the ranch. She took 35,000 and she apologized afterwards and she was crying and all that stuff because Michael had actually helped her. She was a single mother will a daughter and he bought a TV for her and given her some money at one point, you know, and then turned around and bite someone in the back like that. It's just...
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:06:06: Wow.
[David Nordahl]
1:06:08: Human beings are no damn good.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:06:11: Right. I mean, just like that.
[David Nordahl]
1:06:14: Just for money.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:06:16: Just for money. For the love of money. So, now we have, you know, we've got a lot of kids that--is not as though Michael they just heard Michael, you know, like right now, this whole thing about Michael being on drugs and all of that and I don't see it. I don't see and somebody told me that I was being--I was in denial and I am telling people I have been the therapist in three different hospitals with addictions of all kinds and still not even trying to hear it. I'm not over here being in denial. I am just saying that there are people that take medicines and the medicine you can become dependent on the medicines. It's as simple as that.
[David Nordahl]
1:07:07: I remember back in--remember when Michael got burned. Remember that Pepsi ad? He got his head burnt and during the time that after he got burned, they inserted a balloon under his scalp and I even felt a bit and it was really big because they have to pull, you know, to expand the skin so they can cover that spot that got burned out.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:07:38: Right.
[David Nordahl]
1:07:40: During that time with Michael was at a lot of pain and that was when he started taking pain pills for the pain because the pain was excruciating and then I remember he got hooked on those which does not take very long to do but he didn't know anything about that. He did know anything about drugs. He have never taken a drug. He has never even taken an aspirin, so but then he got clean. He got away from that and, you know, over the years I spend a lot of time with him, all different times of the day, early in the morning, all day long, late into the night, sometimes in the middle of the night when Michael couldn't sleep. I never ever saw him that would be under the influence of any kind of drug or painkiller or anything like that and I only saw him drink wine two times, that was once when I was in New York with Ian and Lisa Marie and the other time when I was out to California down at La Jolla and that was just a short glass of wine, but there are these people out there, they are just thinking that he has taken all of these drugs and he is all drugged out, everything, I never saw it, I'm sorry.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:09:01: I can understand. I can understand him being in pain with every single that went on with him and I can understand his pain and I can understand him having--becoming dependent. There are drugs that you will become dependent on but you are not--let me say, you are not getting high. You are dependent if you don't take it then the problem will return, that's all. But I think Michael have something inserted in his body that would make sure that his body did not respond to any opiate. So he get the part that kill the pain but the other part they would make you feel like you were high or something but part that the real addict one, he had to pull totally out. So, he had a different kind of thing going on, so that's why I don't understand why people are saying "Oh gee, you're an addict because of what he did". It's what the addict doesn't want to do. It's like you want to get high, right?
[David Nordahl]
1:10:11: Right, sure of course.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:10:14: So you can't do that if you take the opiate out.
[David Nordahl]
1:10:18: And I can understand him using the propofol one. He doesn't want to use getting ready for This Is It concert there is so much pressure on him because you know it started out being 10 performances and overtime, it grew to 50. I mean good Lord that an unbelievable on a concert and for him who has trouble sleeping and with all that pressure that makes it even harder for him to sleep, he needed to do something. Either to back out of the show or do something, so he gets some sleep.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:10:56: Right. Well I never really quite understood. You know, I think that people like, you know, not that he even wanted to talk about him but I think that people like Murray, they start out with this extreme admiration, but I think admiration going crazy is actually what jealousy is.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:11:24: I think that's what happened to him, you know, right now, we are trying to work to make sure that there is something we can do for either for him, not to come out so early, number one or number two for him not to come out and sell a lie, another, you know, I did already call on. We've call no--I forgot what's the name of the call is. I don't know what it was but anyway, but it basically it boiled down as if you don't have any facts, you cannot put this up and you call it up and make it look like it's factual, like its something that's history. It was called no documentary and there were never any documents to any of this. Everything that is, its all hearsay and this, a beautiful man and, you know, because or else we would not be here, you know?
[David Nordahl]
1:12:27: Yup.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:12:28: That's why were here. So we know that he is not there with the drug. What we want to know though is we want to know about the Michael that we miss. The other things we're talking about that isn't even that the Michael that someone else built. You know what I'm...
[David Nordahl]
1:12:56: I totally agree. I don't recognize him through the media at all.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:13:01: That is not even, you know, that's not even--that's not at all that has nothing to do. This is a person to me that was incredibly spiritual.
[David Nordahl]
1:13:13: Oh yeah.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:13:14: I don't see you going in there and reading a book of scripture and then popping some __1:13:23__ tablets at the same time.
[David Nordahl]
1:13:28: No.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:13:29: I don't see it. I don't think that Michael would do that.
[David Nordahl]
1:13:32: No. He wouldn't. No he sure would not.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:13:38: But, you know, what about, you said the press was really, really on him. What they have to do regarding, you know, the thing with the _1:13:53_ are they the people that started the lie about him trying to be white?
[David Nordahl]
1:14:01: You know, I don't know where that started from. I have a feeling it started over in England, I think, with some of the rags but then it was just repeated.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:14:12: With England, someone told me about--told me to quit my--she says "quit your bellyaching or something" because I did not think that and I still do not think that Justin Bieber should have taken Michael's record without permission and its selling like wow in the UK.
[David Nordahl]
1:14:44: Oh was that right?
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:14:46: Yeah. He had a record called Slave to the Rhythm that was never produced. I mean it was never released, whatever and so Justin Bieber took it and Justin Bieber is likes it's a duet or something.
[David Nordahl]
1:15:04: I didn't know that.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:15:06: So, I mean, so for Michael, he is not getting a chance even now, that's why its so important that we talk about Michael who he was. That's why this conversation is so important. We want to make it plain because we got people and caught on as we speak and everything they can to tear him down and that's why I'm telling you David, tell us all about it. We need to know. We need to have a testimony that talks about Michael really was and yet is actually in the mind of all us.
[David Nordahl]
1:15:46: That's right. But he was just a great guy, you know, off stage he was just a regular guy and all of the sudden people call him Wacko Jacko and all that kind of stuff but, I don't know it just seemed to me that he was more normal than 99% of the people out there.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:16:06: Right I don't see, I never could see what was so Wacko. I never did get that.
[David Nordahl]
1:16:11: I didn't either, you know, yeah. He will be outside and he was in daytime and he would have a hat on and sometimes he would have a mask over his face or an umbrella or something and people thought that was weird, but the vitiligo that he had he could not allow the sun to touch his skin, not even touch it. Most of the time, you know, when I was with Michael. We'd hangout outside at night and he love to do that because he love the outdoors, but he really had a difficult time for him to be outside in the day time when the sun was shining.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:16:51: That had to be really awful for him.
[David Nordahl]
1:16:53: He put mask on his kids for the obvious reason that after Michael had children, he worried that the kids would be harmed somehow or kidnapped or something and so, he did not want their faces exposed. Therefore the kids could go somewhere with someone else and they wouldn't have to wear mask because nobody knew what they look like. Michael and the kids came here to Santa Fe and we went to a movie which is weird. It was on Memorial Day weekend and we went to an opening of The Day After Tomorrow. It was a film by a director that Michael knew and so he wanted to see the film. It was just opening and the theater was in the mall on the north side of town and memorial day weekend, the parking lot was absolutely jammed there wasn't even a parking place in there and were going to go to a movie, you know, I have gone to movies before and Michael was always to a screening room or something where its just us. I could not believe were trying to go to a movie and so I took the kids and went inside and we got tickets and the three kids, of course they did not have to wear mask because, you know nobody knew they belong to Michael and so we went in and got our popcorn stuff, got sat down in a theater and then when the film started and the theater got dark and Michael came in the backdoor, walked up the aisle and sat down with us and he is wearing, and I call them silk pajamas, but there, you know, the Chinese things that look like pajamas, those silks and they're beautiful, but that is what he is wearing and a baseball cap.
1:18:49: And we sat to the whole movie and I am thinking before this movie ends, we better get up and get moving and but we kept sitting there and sitting there and sitting there and the movie came to an end and the lights came up and the theater was jammed, it was absolutely packed and so everybody got up and shuffled out and they all got passed us, we got up and went out the backdoor. I was so shocked that nobody realized who it was, but they didn't. Nobody said a word. But you can see that when the kids were with me there wasn't a problem because they did not know what the kids look like, so the kids could do whatever they wanted.
TECHNICAL DIFFICULTIES
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:21:01: Alright but were back together?
[David Nordahl]
1:21:05: Pardon?
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:21:06: You are able to hear me now?
[David Nordahl]
1:21:09: Yeah. I can hear you just fine. Can you hear me?
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:21:12: Oh yes. Absolutely. Okay that was kind of (crosstalk) I want the people, you know, not to just sit there and then wonder why things didn't go, this was a good time for you to call in and if there are things that you want to ask David, you can do it. Yes. You can do it. We'll just wait out here and we are chatting about different things like, the press and some of the things that we know about, what we really do want to do is we want to get down to who Michael was from within. We--I really want to talk about Michael's heart and his spirit and what made him. We said that, you know, he didn't think very much of himself and I kind of wonder how he did not think much--think well of yourself and then do so much for others.
[David Nordahl]
1:22:14: I know, I think it's just because. He just demanded so much of himself in a way with music and his public service that I don't think he ever reached the level that he wanted to be at, that's all. No doubt Michael was a good person. He was an accomplished entertainer, a great benefactor, so I don't know but I just had--always had that feeling that Michael did not come up to his own standards that he did not meet what he thought he should be.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:22:53: Well, he was a perfectionist. You never saw him _1:22:56_
[David Nordahl]
1:22:57: It is perfectionism. It's wanting to make sure that everything is always the best that you can possibly make it.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:23:06: Well what happened with him on Dave Dave or Dave's last name, really wasn't Dave. You know, do you know the real father who set him on fire?
[David Nordahl]
1:23:21: Oh god. Oh man. That was horrible. God Michael paid for over 50 surgeries for that little guy.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:23:32: And so what, you know, how did things work out for him?
[David Nordahl]
1:23:38: I don't know. I never heard about that afterwards, you know, I don't know what happened to him, but I know Michael...
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:23:47: But I know that I saw him, I saw him well before _1:23:53_ went off the air, Larry King live. I saw him. That's the last time I saw him.
[David Nordahl]
1:23:58: What was that right?
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:23:59: And I think Michael had already made his transition.
[David Nordahl]
1:24:05: Yeah. Yeah.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:24:07: So, I think he said that Michael promised to take care of him for the rest of his life.
[David Nordahl]
1:24:15: Yeah. I'm sure he did. I'm sure Michael--well that's something Michael would do. That's something Michael would do.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:24:26: Poor guy, to have your father just decide to burn you up.
[David Nordahl]
1:24:31: How can I get any worse than that. I mean, that's just--that's something you can't even think about. It's just awful. I know Michael, he's just crushed. He did everything for that little guy.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:24:51: Well I'm glad he helped him. I'm glad he helped him.
[David Nordahl]
1:24:56: Well, yeah. Anybody that Michael heard about like that he would rush in and do everything he could, you know, he paid for so many surgeries, when I was with him and Lisa Marie in New York, there was that boy, I don't remember if it's a Bosnia or Yugoslavia or where he is from but he needed a heart transplant or heart surgery, I think, I think it was heart surgery and so Michael and Lisa Marie offered to pay for the surgery which was supposed to be $125,000 but when they found out it was Michael Jackson and Lisa Marie that were paying for it, the price went up to $250,000.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:25:43: Oh lord, have mercy.
[David Nordahl]
1:25:45: Isn't it (crosstalk)
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:25:47: Yes.
[David Nordahl]
1:25:48: Yeah. They doubled it.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:25:50: Well, I'm just glad you didn't say a million.
[David Nordahl]
1:25:53: Yeah. God. They could have, I mean, those kinds of things has really disappointed Michael, you know, that he is trying to do something good and then people try to take advantage of it.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:26:06: And now, there is no one to take advantage of all these people, these tabloid writers where are they? I haven't heard any and these people, this Dimond, Diane Dimond person, she--there is no information on her. There really is no information. You can go on, you can find her per--something like a resume about her but you--it's not like Michael whose life was open. We know about him from being 5 years old.
[David Nordahl]
1:26:43: Absolutely.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:26:44: But half of her life was missing and if you go and do a search on her which I did, I did it because I wanted to know why anybody would talk like that about Michael.
[David Nordahl]
1:26:56: I know.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:26:57: I just really wanted to understand what kind of woman this was that would do something like that to a sweet guy like Michael. (Crosstalk)
[David Nordahl]
1:27:06: Even after of the trial. Even after he is found innocent.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:27:12: Yes. That point you really want to tell and these people, back to those MSNBC thing, they have now decided that she is an expert on child molesters, now how is a person become an expert on child molestation? How does that happen?
[David Nordahl]
1:27:39: Self-declared, I think.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:27:41: Well they put her up there they said that, you know, they hire her. Whoever that person was, somebody that was over a university but anyway, they immediately hired her because they felt she knew so much about it, so that when the live when out that were damaging to Michael, they were also empowering to other people. So it took some that were good and lifted up--sit down the good and lifted up the bad and the ugly.
[David Nordahl]
1:28:12: I know.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:28:14: You know?
[David Nordahl]
1:28:15: I know.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:28:16: Maybe because she doesn't have that knowledge. She doesn't?
[David Nordahl]
1:28:23: Nope. That's what so frustrating, you know, so frustrating.
[Rev Dr Catherine M Gross]
1:28:30: But you were telling us about Michael and his purpose. Michael felt that his purpose was to help children. If he had gone on a talk show and explained that, do you think that would have been well-received?
[David Nordahl]
1:28:54: I am not sure. I think if he had done real early young, before all the conjecture and all of the people making up stories about him. I think if he had gone early in his career, will it had to be almost a child, like a teenager or something, but I think it would have then, but I am not sure later on. I don't think going out a talk show or talking. You know, (crosstalk)